NL Mvp

[djfresh47]

So because there's a DH, Ortiz should be punished because of it? It's not like Ortiz is the only DH in the AL.

Sorry but I disagree with you about hitting while being a DH or hitting when playing the field. It is much harder to hitting when you're DHing because you're cold and your body relaxes while sitting on the bench. When you're in the field you still have your body going and are warm in the game. You have to have focus to be able to hit and have you ever tried to hit a ball after sitting on your butt for 45 minutes? It's not as easy as it would be if you were moving around. That's why you stretch out before you lift or work out (same logic).

And numerous players have said they don't like to DH because it's too hard for them to focus while sitting on the bench and then trying to get themselves pumped up to try and hit. Chipper Jones, Jason Giambi, Manny Ramirez, and even Frank Thomas who is a full time DH.

Frank Thomas hated playing the field. When he did play the field he was a much better hitter which would help your arguement but he just didn't wanna do it.

 

[Ray Finkle]

So I should just ignore everything in a close game until the 9th inning? Saying Ortiz wins games by himself is laughable really? He's had game winning hits late in a game but what's the difference between a game winning hit early in the game and late in the game? I looked at his late inning stats on MLB.com he's hitting slighly above his average at a little above .300 in late innings of close games. Since the all-star break he is hitting a ridiculous .538 in late innings of close games but I expect that will level off as more AB's come. If I needed a single hit i'd probably take Joe Mauer right now he is hitting 75 points higher than Ortiz. Also he has 5 homeruns in late innings of close games all vs right handed pitchers and he is hitting a modest .214 vs LH pitchers in late innings of close games.

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stats/individual_player_splits.jsp?playerID=120074&statType=1&splitSet=1&c_id=mlb&sitSplit1=lc

Wouldn't you say there's a little more pressure when you're batting in the 9th inning with 2 outs compared to the 2nd or 3rd inning with 2 outs?

Joe Mauer over David Ortiz? Seriously?

EDIT: Ortiz got a GW winning walk off hit vs. the Angels and a lefty pitcher (Romero) last Saturday. So he still gets the job done vs. lefties.

 

[Boik14]

So because there's a DH, Ortiz should be punished because of it? It's not like Ortiz is the only DH in the AL.

Sorry but I disagree with you about hitting while being a DH or hitting when playing the field. It is much harder to hitting when you're DHing because you're cold and your body relaxes while sitting on the bench. When you're in the field you still have your body going and are warm in the game. You have to have focus to be able to hit and have you ever tried to hit a ball after sitting on your butt for 45 minutes? It's not as easy as it would be if you were moving around. That's why you stretch out before you lift or work out (same logic).

And numerous players have said they don't like to DH because it's too hard for them to focus while sitting on the bench and then trying to get themselves pumped up to try and hit. Chipper Jones, Jason Giambi, Manny Ramirez, and even Frank Thomas who is a full time DH.

Well considering he only has half the responsibility as everyone else why should he be rewarded? There are hitters with comprarable stats who play the field. they do more for their teams.

You can argue a player is cold after he dh's but thats by choice. he could just as easily stay warm and ride a stationary bike. Fielders dont have that choice. Theyre in the field whether its rain or a heat wave. Ortiz or any other dh has the luxury of sitting in the shaded dugout. We can agree to disagree if youd like. i respect your opinion but disagree with your stance on this.

 

[Ray Finkle]

Frank Thomas hated playing the field. When he did play the field he was a much better hitter which would help your arguement but he just didn't wanna do it.

Exactly. The same with Giambi. Giambi's numbers playing 1st base compared to DHing are night and day (only Giambi hates DHing).

 

[Boik14]

Wouldn't you say there's a little more pressure when you're batting in the 9th inning with 2 outs compared to the 2nd or 3rd inning with 2 outs?
Joe Mauer over David Ortiz? Seriously? ] [/QUOTE That depends on the situation. A hit in the 2nd or 3rd inning can just as easily win the game or take the wind out of your team. there's more pressure in the 9th onl because you didnt do the right things for the first 8.

 

[djfresh47]

Wouldn't you say there's a little more pressure when you're batting in the 9th inning with 2 outs compared to the 2nd or 3rd inning with 2 outs?

Joe Mauer over David Ortiz? Seriously?

.365 to .290, what's so crazy about that? So a game-winning hit should only be acknowledged if it is with 2 outs in the 9th inning? Also Mauer probably plays the most physically demanding position in baseball which makes his average much more impressive. Using the same logic we should only acknowledge the pitcher who gets the last out of a game and just ignore everything else that has happened.

 

[Ray Finkle]

Well considering he only has half the responsibility as everyone else why should he be rewarded? There are hitters with comprarable stats who play the field. they do more for their teams.

You can argue a player is cold after he dh's but thats by choice. he could just as easily stay warm and ride a stationary bike. Fielders dont have that choice. Theyre in the field whether its rain or a heat wave. Ortiz or any other dh has the luxury of sitting in the shaded dugout. We can agree to disagree if youd like. i respect your opinion but disagree with your stance on this.

But no one has stats that are comparable who play the field in the AL to Ortiz. That's why he should win it. Last year when Arod and Ortiz had pretty much the same numbers I had no problem that Arod won the award.

Nah dude, I definitely agree with some of the things you're saying and just trying to have a friendly debate (as with anyone else too) I don't mean to get anyone p/oed or whatever.

I guess it all comes down to that I just don't care if a DH wins the award. Maybe I'm a bit biased because Ortiz is my guy but trust me when I say if Travis Hafner was going to beat out Manny Ramirez for the award I wouldn't have a problem with it.

 

[Boik14]

Sorry but the award is based all about offense. I doubt the voters even look at fielding %, put outs, assists, etc when voting.

Youre right in that they probably dont look at those stats but by definition the silver slugger is for offense only and the gold glove is supposed to be for defense only.

But if you dont think it can make or break a case check out arod vs Ortiz on the 05 ballot and tell me some voters didnt vote for arod simply based on the DH factor last year. Arods gold glove caliber D set him apart when they had very similar stats

 

[Ray Finkle]

.365 to .290, what's so crazy about that? So a game-winning hit should only be acknowledged if it is with 2 outs in the 9th inning? Also Mauer probably plays the most physically demanding position in baseball which makes his average much more impressive. Using the same logic we should only acknowledge the pitcher who gets the last out of a game and just ignore everything else that has happened.

Yes Mauer plays the hardest position in maybe all of sports but saying you'd rather take Mauer over Ortiz is nuts. What has Mauer ever done in his career besides this year to justifiy you putting him up to the plate instead of Ortiz.

If I could have one guy on my team to give the bat to in a big spot it would be Ortiz no matter what. Next would probably be Pujols and then Jeter. This is where looking at the numbers doesn't tell the whole story. Ortiz has 5 walk off hits this year alone. 12 in 3 years, that's insane. That's clutch and he has a track record of coming through. Mauer doesn't that's why it's crazy.

 

[Boik14]

But no one has stats that are comparable who play the field in the AL to Ortiz. That's why he should win it. Last year when Arod and Ortiz had pretty much the same numbers I had no problem that Arod won the award.

Nah dude, I definitely agree with some of the things you're saying and just trying to have a friendly debate (as with anyone else too) I don't mean to get anyone p/oed or whatever.

I guess it all comes down to that I just don't care if a DH wins the award. Maybe I'm a bit biased because Ortiz is my guy but trust me when I say if Travis Hafner was going to beat out Manny Ramirez for the award I wouldn't have a problem with it.

Hafner has similar stats. So does manny. I could easily make a case for Jeter and his 350 BA and the fact he may drive in 100 from the #2 slot and score 120 runs or thereabouts. Ortiz might luck into the award because Teixeira (RIP Fantasy baseball team), Vlad, and arod are all having down years but he still contributes less i the long run.

Anyway, back to the original debate about NL MVP or has that been settled that its likely to be:
Pujols
Beltran
Wright
Howard/Berkman/Utley/Sori

 

[Boik14]

Yes Mauer plays the hardest position in maybe all of sports but saying you'd rather take Mauer over Ortiz is nuts. What has Mauer ever done in his career besides this year to justifiy you putting him up to the plate instead of Ortiz.

If I could have one guy on my team to give the bat to in a big spot it would be Ortiz no matter what. Next would probably be Pujols and then Jeter. This is where looking at the numbers doesn't tell the whole story. Ortiz has 5 walk off hits this year alone. 12 in 3 years, that's insane. That's clutch and he has a track record of coming through. Mauer doesn't that's why it's crazy.

Mauer over Ortiz isnt that nuts. Its much harder to find offense from a catcher then a 1b/DH type. But im not sure if you and DJ arent talking about 2 different things here with you talking about an individual Ab and him (I think) talking over the course of a season.

 

[Ray Finkle]

Youre right in that they probably dont look at those stats but by definition the silver slugger is for offense only and the gold glove is supposed to be for defense only.

But if you dont think it can make or break a case check out arod vs Ortiz on the 05 ballot and tell me some voters didnt vote for arod simply based on the DH factor last year. Arods gold glove caliber D set him apart when they had very similar stats

I agree with this statement. And IF a "position" player had similar numbers compared to Ortiz and the award went to him for that reason I wouldn't have any problem with it.

My point is Ortiz should win the AL MVP award no matter what simply because no one comes close to his numbers this year. Thus defense shouldn't matter in this years voting.

 

[Ray Finkle]

Mauer over Ortiz isnt that nuts. Its much harder to find offense from a catcher then a 1b/DH type. But im not sure if you and DJ arent talking about 2 different things here with you talking about an individual Ab and him (I think) talking over the course of a season.

This was from finfansince72:
"Clutch is overrated? Im sure every single coach or player in the league would disagree with you. Ortiz silenced everyone this year, he wins it this year because its just undeniable that he is the most valuable player in the league. If your life was on the line and you needed someone to get a hit who would you pick? If you say anyone other than Ortiz you are a liar straight up."

That is what I was talking about. If my life was on the line and needed someone to get a hit I'd go with Ortiz.

 

[Boik14]

I agree with this statement. And IF a "position" player had similar numbers compared to Ortiz and the award went to him for that reason I wouldn't have any problem with it.

My point is Ortiz should win the AL MVP award no matter what simply because no one comes close to his numbers this year. Thus defense shouldn't matter in this years voting.

But players do have comprarable stats (Runs/HR/RBI/BA/SB/OPS):
Thome: (81/33/83/298/0/1.044)
Hafner: (81/33/94/306/0/1.071)
Ortiz: (83/39/108/290/1/1.022)
Jeter: (74/8/67/350/24/.911)
Manny: (68/31/89/310/0/1.054)
Morneau: (64/29/97/323/1/.983)

The only stat papi stands out in is rbi. His BA is the worst (though by no means bad) of any of the candidates. His OPS is middle of the pack.

 

[Boik14]

This was from finfansince72:
"Clutch is overrated? Im sure every single coach or player in the league would disagree with you. Ortiz silenced everyone this year, he wins it this year because its just undeniable that he is the most valuable player in the league. If your life was on the line and you needed someone to get a hit who would you pick? If you say anyone other than Ortiz you are a liar straight up."
That is what I was talking about. If my life was on the line and needed someone to get a hit I'd go with Ortiz.

Thats fine. id go with D wright. Homeritis? Maybe. But my 2nd choice would be Jeter or Manny.