Russ Lande(former scout) on the rookies | Page 5 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Russ Lande(former scout) on the rookies

mikethewreck said:
In 3 years I might agree wholeheartedly with you. Time will tell. I do understand how this pick can cause head-scratching. I know the FO spends a lot more time looking at players than I do and I also know that they don't always get it right.
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I didn't like the pick at first but I warmed up to it. In 2010 we'll have Chad Henne backed up by Pat White. Both of which will have time to have gotten used to our system and our OL. This is a move for the future.

This way they're not forced to keep Pennington if they don't want to. They're not forced to acquire a vet backup QB.

Besides Pat White is simply worth a 2nd round pick. Over 10k yards in total offense. Led his team to 4 bowl game victories. Led his team to another senior bowl victory. He was the MVP of the Senior Bowl. When you look at his college numbers he seems well worth a 2nd round pick.
 
I do have concerns with White's size (height and build). Odds are against short and slender QBs in the NFL. Doesn't mean it's an impossibility for him to be a good QB but there we go with risk again. Dude's got serious intangibles, no doubt. 5 bowl wins (counting Senior), that counts for something.

I do think we are divided into maybe 3 camps by the Pat White pick:
  1. Camp 1: Too high risk for a second round, don't think he'll be more than a gimmick player.
  2. Camp 2: He had good college production and can turbocharge the Wildcat, good use of second round pick.
  3. Camp 3: Insufficient data to make a determination at this time.
We can talk all we want (and that's the point of FH) but most of us are stuck in a camp and aren't coming out until reality proves us right or wrong or gives us data to move out of camp 3 (where I'm hanging out now). Personally I like White but I see both camp 1 and 2 arguments. :confused:
 
Xeticus said:
I didn't like the pick at first but I warmed up to it. In 2010 we'll have Chad Henne backed up by Pat White. Both of which will have time to have gotten used to our system and our OL. This is a move for the future.

This way they're not forced to keep Pennington if they don't want to. They're not forced to acquire a vet backup QB.

Besides Pat White is simply worth a 2nd round pick. Over 10k yards in total offense. Led his team to 4 bowl game victories. Led his team to another senior bowl victory. He was the MVP of the Senior Bowl. When you look at his college numbers he seems well worth a 2nd round pick.
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You really can't use college stats as an indicator of success though. If you went by that, then John Beck and David Klingler would be all-pros.
 
I was more impressed by White's wins in bowl games than his stats (which were pretty good in themselves). White's opponents (including my beloved Georgia Tech Yellow Jackets who got POUNDED by White in a bowl game) always spoke highly of him. Beck and Klingler didn't play the level of competition White did IMHO. I also think the FO was very influenced by Senior Bowl performances. I'm still in camp 3.
 
I'm trying NOT to get too attached to draft picks and UDFAs. They aren't puppies (maybe according to BP they are), they're employees and there is only room on the team for so many. While I like White and am pulling for Marion, I realize over 20 current Dolphins are not going to find a home on the 53 man roster or the practice squad. If the FO says there's no room for Marion or White, so be it. I can't wait for TC to start and we see how the kids (and the vets, especially concerned about Green) do in pads.
 
Xeticus said:
I didn't like the pick at first but I warmed up to it. In 2010 we'll have Chad Henne backed up by Pat White. Both of which will have time to have gotten used to our system and our OL. This is a move for the future.

This way they're not forced to keep Pennington if they don't want to. They're not forced to acquire a vet backup QB.

Besides Pat White is simply worth a 2nd round pick. Over 10k yards in total offense. Led his team to 4 bowl game victories. Led his team to another senior bowl victory. He was the MVP of the Senior Bowl. When you look at his college numbers he seems well worth a 2nd round pick.
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So based on college numbers shouldnt these guys have been very high picks. College numbers do not equate to drafting high.

Graham Harrel 134 td passes 2nd all time in passing yards
Ty Detmer former all time passing leader 16276 passing yards 127 td passes
Colt Brennan 146 tds total passing and running, 14000 passing yards 70 percent completion
Mike Hart 5000 rushing yards
Tim Chang 17000 passing yards 131 tds passing
 
Didn't like the White pick, but it's grown on me.

Not to totally geek out, but I'm going to use my experience with fantasy football to try to support some of CK's points.

Here is my experience:

With your first couple picks, you draft players that should be studs. After that, you go for a combination of solid players with relatively low ceilings and risky picks with much higher ceilings. I picked of M. Turner (not a safe pick at the time) in R4 and C. Johnson in R8 or 9. It's a two-way street, though. I passed up on T. Jones for R. Williams. T. Jones didn't score well the previous season, and he had never been an explosive player in fantasy football. Williams was hit-or-miss, considering uncertainty surrounding R. Brown. But, even with the miss on the T. Jones pick, I finished 2nd in my league (and my first picks were Brady and Moss - had the last pick of the 1st round).

I know fantasy football is different than real football - and for the record, I enjoy fantasy with my tongue-in-cheek - but drafts are a series of investments. In my experience, the most successful investors know how to balance security/risk/reward. Everyone misses sometimes. White might be a miss. I thought we were going to draft C. Barwin. I'm very glad we didn't draft C. Sintim - don't think he'd start or even play much.
 
j-off-her-doll said:
Didn't like the White pick, but it's grown on me.

Not to totally geek out, but I'm going to use my experience with fantasy football to try to support some of CK's points.

Here is my experience:

With your first couple picks, you draft players that should be studs. After that, you go for a combination of solid players with relatively low ceilings and risky picks with much higher ceilings. I picked of M. Turner (not a safe pick at the time) in R4 and C. Johnson in R8 or 9. It's a two-way street, though. I passed up on T. Jones for R. Williams. T. Jones didn't score well the previous season, and he had never been an explosive player in fantasy football. Williams was hit-or-miss, considering uncertainty surrounding R. Brown. But, even with the miss on the T. Jones pick, I finished 2nd in my league (and my first picks were Brady and Moss - had the last pick of the 1st round).

I know fantasy football is different than real football - and for the record, I enjoy fantasy with my tongue-in-cheek - but drafts are a series of investments. In my experience, the most successful investors know how to balance security/risk/reward. Everyone misses sometimes. White might be a miss. I thought we were going to draft C. Barwin. I'm very glad we didn't draft C. Sintim - don't think he'd start or even play much.
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nobody that is good at fantasy football would take that big a risk in the second round.
 
nobody that is good at fantasy football would take that big a risk in the second round.
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Fantasy football is different because you build your entire team through one draft. The White pick is more like taking a risk on a player in R5 or 6 - IMO.
 
dlockz said:
So based on college numbers shouldnt these guys have been very high picks. College numbers do not equate to drafting high.

Graham Harrel 134 td passes 2nd all time in passing yards
Ty Detmer former all time passing leader 16276 passing yards 127 td passes
Colt Brennan 146 tds total passing and running, 14000 passing yards 70 percent completion
Mike Hart 5000 rushing yards
Tim Chang 17000 passing yards 131 tds passing
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"I think we got it you do not like the Pat White pick given the round he was picked in."
If Pat White had been picked in the 3rd many of us probably would have been much happier as far as value is concerned. In fact I believe the same thing can be said for the picks used for Turner, Hartline and Naborne too. They all appeared to be a round high. I liked the Clemmons, Gardner and DB picks much more. What was trading our 7th to KC for KC's 7th next year what value was that. Even Ireland said he picked more for need than value in this draft. So we are left with the question "Why" would Ireland pick need over value. We can safely say that Ireland felt that they needed a better QB than John Beck to compete with Chad Henne because John Beck was released right away. So Pat White was not just picked as a gimmick player as some suggest but as a projected QB whom perhaps can also play as a gimmick player. There have been some articles written about Bill Parcells playing around with the wildcat theme for many years before last years. Couple that with the need for a QB and the potential value of a Pat White rises on the Dolphins draft board than another teams. He is a potential dual player for the phins where with another team he is a situational player. How many Pat Whites were there to choose from in this years draft that is a good question too? Lets move on to the WR Turner another player picked a round high. We know that Wilford has been a bust so far for the phins and Turner is his projected replacement / competition. The phins are determined to get a large target for a WR and are willing to pay high price to get one. Cammarillo we know is IR is a great ST and Hartline brings some of same traits to the table.
I can only expect that the TE we picked is to replace Martin who is more WR than TE. Thats just a guess but Bill P and company have stated that they have certain criteria for drafting and that limits their draft pool. I hope that next year we see more value drafting but if the guys they drafted this year turn out to be studs then what can we the fans really say. Last years performance really does give Bill P and Co more leeway drafting the players that they want than if lets say they finished 4-12 as many projected. Most of our draft picks and FA showed some value last year too other than the picks OL Murphy and Lex the RB.
 
phintim said:
I think we got it you do not like the Pat White pick given the round he was picked in. If he had been picked in the 3rd many of us probably would have been much happier as far as value is concerned. In fact I beleive the same thing can be said for the picks used for Turner, Hartline and Naborne too. They all appeared to be a round high. I liked the Clemmons, Gardner and DB picks much more. What was trading our 7th to KC for KC's 7th next year what value was that. Even Ireland said he picked more for need than value in this draft. So we are left with the question "Why" would Ireland pick need over value. We can safely say that Ireland felt that they needed a better QB than John Beck to compete with Chad Henne because John Beck was released right away. So Pat White was not just picked as a gimmick player as some suggest but as a projected QB whom perhaps can also play as a gimmick player. There have been some articles written about Bill Parcells playing around with the wildcat theme for many years before last years. Couple that with the need for a QB and the potential value of a Pat White rises on the Dolphins draft board than another teams. He is a potential dual player for the phins where with another team he is a situational player. How many Pat Whites were there to choose from that is a good question too? Lets move on to Turner another player picked a round high. We know that Wilford has been a bust so far for the phins and Turner is his projected replacement / competition. The phins are determined to get a large target for a WR and are willing to pay high price to get one. Cammarillo we know is IR is a great ST and Harline brings some of traits to the table.
I can only expect that the TE we picked is to replace Martin who is more WR than TE. Thats just a quess but Bill P and compnay have stated that they have certain criteria for drafting and that limits their pool. I certainly hope that next year we see more value drafting but it these guys they drafted this year turn out to be studs then what can the fans really say. I mean last years performance really does give Bill P and Co more leeway drafting the players that they want than if lets say they finished 4-12 as many projected. Most of our draft picks and FA showed some value last year too other than the picks OL Murphy and Lex the RB.
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I personally would rather have drafted NAte Davis as a Qb.
I did not see backup qb as a need you takein the second.
I would have been alright with White in the 4th.
 
dlockz said:
So based on college numbers shouldnt these guys have been very high picks. College numbers do not equate to drafting high.

Graham Harrel 134 td passes 2nd all time in passing yards
Ty Detmer former all time passing leader 16276 passing yards 127 td passes
Colt Brennan 146 tds total passing and running, 14000 passing yards 70 percent completion
Mike Hart 5000 rushing yards
Tim Chang 17000 passing yards 131 tds passing
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How about Ryan Leaf? Players of all types fail.
 
dlockz said:
I personally would rather have drafted NAte Davis as a Qb.
I did not see backup qb as a need you takein the second.
I would have been alright with White in the 4th.
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Well as a fan...one can appreciate that...but what I or you want has no importance...now does it.

The important issue is that the Dolphins saw something in him....just like the Pats did...and to me as a fan...thats the issue that matters to me.
 
dlockz said:
I personally would rather have drafted NAte Davis as a Qb.
I did not see backup qb as a need you takein the second.
I would have been alright with White in the 4th.
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I agree with all of that with the only x-factor being what if Pat White is good enough in the Wildcat to do EXACTLY as Russ Lande says, make the defense a step slow defending against the other players?

Make no mistake, the Wildcat won the Dolphins some football games. If Pat White's presence makes the Wildcat sharper, or even just keeps the rest of the league from catching up to it, then it means selecting Pat White won the Dolphins games too. Any pick that provides the delta between winning and losing multiple games, should be considered a successful pick.
 
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