what if...we traded B.Hartline?

[wonderl33t]

On paper, it would be great value to get a 2nd for him, but I wouldn't do it because he has such good chemistry with Tannehill. So basically, Hartline is worth more to us than he could be to any other team.

 

[whizafriz]

I do agree with a lot of the people here that would welcome a trade Hartline for a 2nd rd-er. His production is very solid, but it "seems he cant breakout anymore than he already has". There's certainly merit to it, I respect that.
However, thinking about it more, I'd be hesitant to trade him this year so I can see how he does in Lazor's offense. If Wallace can have a breakout season by being utilized better, that only means Hartline and Gibson could equally have terrific opportunity to get open and make plays. They could then be well-worth the contracts they're making now. Let's not forget, the past 3 offensive coordinators in Miami have been Dan Henning, Brian Daboll, and Mike Sherman. That doesn't scream "elite" to me, and I'd bet the WR's would agree.

One similar deal to what I'm talking about that comes to mind is the Vontae Davis trade. I think Miami got this one wrong in that Vontae was becoming a potentially truly-premiere shutdown CB, and with a great CB#2, would've been electric for our D. Call me a homer or whatever, call Vontae a lazy buffoon, but a starting CB group of Vontae and Brent Grimes, with Finnegan and Taylor/Will Davis as backups, could easily be top 5 in the NFL.

 

[Cleetus]

Are Wallace and the other WRs not named Gibson suddenly going to start catching passes? If so then I guess we could trade Hartline.

 

[Gonzo]

Hey now, just because Shouwrong kept beating that drum doesn't mean we all felt the same way!

please, he was hardly the only fanboy. The number of times the Welker "trade" came up in Bess threads similar to this one was mind-numbing.


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[Gonzo]

Are Wallace and the other WRs not named Gibson suddenly going to start catching passes? If so then I guess we could trade Hartline.

If they aren't, then it doesn't really matter if we have Hartline or not. All this talk about chemistry between Tannehill and Hartline; if he doesn't develop that chemistry with the far more talented WR on the team, this offense is ****ed. And that's not including any WR we draft who will likely have more upside than Hartline.

But, as several have mentioned, no team I the league worth anything would make that trade. We already suckered Cleveland. Doubt we could do it again.


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[Spesh]

Obviously those same scouts that selected Hartline also thought significantly higher about Patrick Turner. Their track record with WR'S is terrible, as is their track record with 2nd round picks, which ironically is exactly what is being speculated for a Hartline trade.

Whether you think Hartline blossomed into a player better than most scouts expected or that he was simply undervalued by the NFL scouts when he came out, it is biased to ignore the fact that he is a good and productive WR.

Expecting to get someone as productive with our scouts in a 2nd round pick is just horribly naive.

You may love to play the negative nelly. And it is clear you love to hate on our most productive WR. But surely you see the obvious folly in suggesting trading him for a 2nd rounder. Our chances of replacing him with someone as good or better are ridiculously low.

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Speculated by the forum. The same forum that speculated Jimmy Wilson is going to be a shutdown corner and that the team is moving. Neither are considered even remotely possible to those who run NFL franchises. Those two notions arent even some of the most absurd ive seen consistently brought up on this forum.

As i stated before, scouts dont make the decisions, general managers and front office personnel do. Do scouts screw the pooch from time to time? Without a doubt. But scouting reports are supplements to a general managers views. And Jeff Ireland proved to have atrocious views and tendencies. Who is more likely to be at fault it clear to me, just like it was clear to Stephen Ross. I wouldnt be opposing to making changes in our scouting department, but im not going to assume every player we draft is going to bust simply because they have been around for longer then 4 months.
Your blaming the lowest people on the totem pole for the decisions made by those at the highest. By the way, where is the line? Joe Philbin retained some of the people Tony Sparano hired, and Sparano proved to be a poor coach, so does that mean Joe Philbin is doomed to failure? The Cam Cameron/Randy Mueller regime was a disaster and drafted a bust with their top 10 pick, we've kept some of the scouts from then, should we never again spend a draft pick in the top 10? As you suggested, our 3rd round picks havent been great, should we just stop drafting players in that round? For myself, i say we use every opportunity to improve this franchise, even if those opportunities dont work out. Why? Because keeping the players responsible for our mediocrity will just lead to more mediocrity.

And again: it doesn't matter that Hartline is our most productive receiver, that entire unit under produces. We keep losing with that unit. Their lack of touchdowns directly results in lost games. John Jerry was our best guard last season, should we have done everything possible to keep him? Lamar Miller was our most productive back, was the team mistaken for trying to replace him? To both questions the answer is: of course not. Neither of those positions played well, so its irrelevant that they were the best at them.

Second round picks are the life blood of franchises. Some of the best players in the league were former second round picks. GM's love that round because they get borderline first round talent for a very affordable price, it provides fantastic value. Josh Gordon, Alshon Jeffery, Randall Cobb, Torrey Smith, etc, etc, etc, were all former second round picks. Unless your suggesting that Brian Hartline, who has an intimate relationship with the ground, is better then all of them(would not surprise me) then our chances of getting someone better from that round is high. Amazing how 6 years of Jeff Ireland have taught people that the second round is a wasteland in which finding good players is a rarity...or, as you put it: "ridiculously low".

Damned straight i love playing negative nelly when we are losing year after year. The last 5 years have sucked for me, im tired of it and i want this franchise to improve. I want a Superbowl trophy back in Miami and im going to bitch up a storm until we get one. That you are comfortable with where we are says more about you than it does me and my negativity.

 

[Spesh]

NE: He wouldn't start over Amendola (until he is injured again, of course) or Edelman. You could MAYBE argue that he would break even with Edelman, based on stats alone, but that would discount edelmans experience with the system and Tom Brady, and discount the fact that they are going to be trying to get those youngsters more involved. Hartline would get lost in the shuffle.

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Just to add to this: The Patriots spent a second round pick on a receiver in last years draft. Aaron Dobson. Despite being low on the depth chart and playing in a offense that catered more to the tight ends and running backs, Dobson grabbed a respectable 519 yards. Oh and a couple touchdowns. How many? 4.

A rookie put up an identical number to Hartline's career high. A former second round pick matched that high point in his first year. Yet Hartline couldnt be replaced by a second round pick. Sounds legit.

 

[Csonked Out]

Just to add to this: The Patriots spent a second round pick on a receiver in last years draft. Aaron Dobson. Despite being low on the depth chart and playing in a offense that catered more to the tight ends and running backs, Dobson grabbed a respectable 519 yards. Oh and a couple touchdowns. How many? 4.

A rookie put up an identical number to Hartline's career high. A former second round pick matched that high point in his first year. Yet Hartline couldnt be replaced by a second round pick. Sounds legit.

Selective memory, he also had Tom Brady throwing to him and only Edelman on the depth chart ahead of him. That was a huge weakness for the Patriots all year....Ask Detroit how easy it is to find a good #2 receiver. They have been looking for years and finally had to pay big in free agency this year to do it.

Trading Hartline will cost us a similar cap hit if we trade him this year or keep him. You don't take a position of strength on the team and make it a weakness, especially with all of the holes that we have Terrible team and cap management.

 

[sm0kinfins]

If they aren't, then it doesn't really matter if we have Hartline or not. All this talk about chemistry between Tannehill and Hartline; if he doesn't develop that chemistry with the far more talented WR on the team, this offense is ****ed. And that's not including any WR we draft who will likely have more upside than Hartline.

But, as several have mentioned, no team I the league worth anything would make that trade. We already suckered Cleveland. Doubt we could do it again.


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'Faster' does not necessarily mean "more talented'.

 

[Spesh]

Selective memory, he also had Tom Brady throwing to him and only Edelman on the depth chart ahead of him. That was a huge weakness for the Patriots all year....Ask Detroit how easy it is to find a good #2 receiver. They have been looking for years and finally had to pay big in free agency this year to do it.

Trading Hartline will cost us a similar cap hit if we trade him this year or keep him. You don't take a position of strength on the team and make it a weakness, especially with all of the holes that we have Terrible team and cap management.

Edelman(and Amendola) were mentioned in the part i quoted, i simply expanded on the premise. I didnt feel the need to retread it. And while there is no doubt Brady helped the production, we ourselves feel we have a franchise quarterback. That excuse doesnt work anymore.

Ah yes, Detroit. You mean the team that has spent multiple second round picks on receivers and just dropped cash on Golden Tate? The team that is rumored to be very interested in trading up for Sammy Watkins? According to some on here, they never should have addressed that position. I mean, they had Nate Burleson, a solid(if unspectacular) enough player. And yet, they kept searching for an improvement. That they missed on those picks doesnt take away from the fact that they understood the need to upgrade an under producing unit. They understood you can never have enough players that score touchdowns.

I'll take a cap hit if it means getting draft picks in return. Its easier to manufacture cap space then it is to manufacture draft picks. God willing Tannehill will prove worthy of a $100 million contract. But until we have to sign him to that deal, we can afford to take chances with our cap. We need more talent on this roster. Draft picks(which are more affordable anyways) are the best way to get that talent.

And its amazing, simply amazing, how people dont understand how irrelevant it is how our receivers were supposedly a "strength"(they arent, but for sake of the argument i'll indulge). This. Team. Keeps. Losing. Consistently. Over years. Half a decade. Longer then a Presidential term. If our receivers are our strength, than that says more about the quality of our roster then it does the quality of our receivers. Baffling how some are seemingly okay with that. If we insist on keeping average players we will end up with average records.

 

[FSU Truth]

Draft picks are gambles....you don't know what player you are going to get when they are drafted...Hartline is a known commodity, one who can consistently produce at the NFL level. I think back to last year how many were not wanting to give up a second for B.Albert....a known NFL player who produces consistently in the NFL. You can chase that potential all you want, but don't do it at the expense of a guy who has helped this team win games. Hartline is easily worth more then a second to this team.

People love the draft and in returned have started to overvalue those picks...

 

[TheWalrus]

Brian Hartline - 3 years, 22.5 million.

DeSean Jackson - 3 years, 24 million.
James Jones - 3 years, 11.3 million.
Julian Edelman - 4 years, 17 million.
Emmanuel Sanders - 3 years, 15 million.
Steve Smith - 3 years, 11 million.
Hakeem Nicks - 1 year, 3.98 million.
Riley Cooper - 5 years, 25 million.

 

[Gonzo]

'Faster' does not necessarily mean "more talented'.

Great, now he's better than Wallace. Should have no problem landing a 2nd now.

Faster alone may not; but faster, able to get open without double and triple moves, able to stay upright after the catch, and most important, able to find the endzone do mean "more talented."


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[Gonzo]

Draft picks are gambles....you don't know what player you are going to get when they are drafted...Hartline is a known commodity, one who can consistently produce at the NFL level. I think back to last year how many were not wanting to give up a second for B.Albert....a known NFL player who produces consistently in the NFL. You can chase that potential all you want, but don't do it at the expense of a guy who has helped this team win games. Hartline is easily worth more then a second to this team.

People love the draft and in returned have started to overvalue those picks...

By that logic, I sure hope you aren't one of those who scream "build through the draft!!1!" Seems a bit risky.

As for Albert, it was a second, a mid rounder, and a massive contract for a guy entering the tail end of his career (guess what position we have to address again in a couple of years, if we are lucky?) with a bum back. Even in hindsight (nobody saw what happened happening), it still made no sense. Man, how stupid is KC for drafting an LT and moving on from a known commodity? Too risky.


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[Spesh]

Draft picks are gambles....you don't know what player you are going to get when they are drafted...Hartline is a known commodity, one who can consistently produce at the NFL level. I think back to last year how many were not wanting to give up a second for B.Albert....a known NFL player who produces consistently in the NFL. You can chase that potential all you want, but don't do it at the expense of a guy who has helped this team win games. Hartline is easily worth more then a second to this team.

People love the draft and in returned have started to overvalue those picks...

If we dont have a reasonable idea of what kind of players we are receiving when we go to draft them then we need to fire our front office. Right now.

Hartline produces at an average NFL level. He produces at that average level despite quarterbacks producing at unprecedented high levels. And he consistently produces less then other players at his position, many of whom were with second round picks.

And you might have noticed, but Albert hit free agency because the Chiefs drafted someone they feel is the better player. Despite Albert "being a team strength", they replaced him. Over drafted to do so, but they still had a good player and replaced him. Despite the fact that "Fisher was an unknown"(seriously, i would love to hear what you guys think front office personnel do during the season and offseason. Do you think they spend all their time playing darts before downloading a list of names off the interwebz right before the draft so they can pick at random?).

Not only do fans love the draft, teams do. Because they recognize they can get extremely talented players who are young and cost very little. And, seeing your apparently views about the draft, i must ask: how do you think Brian Hartline ended up on this roster? Do you think he walked on? Did he just spontaneously appear in our locker room and the coaching staff nodded and said "**** it, while your here why dont you just suit up magic man, despite having Greg Camarillo we could use another receiver, maybe someday you could replace him"(a possession receiver being replaced? Perish the thought!)?